Commentaires pour AnOpenEye

Commentaires sur Experience of a “beurette” in England as a French teacher assistant par ALEXANDER

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Commentaires sur “France, you like it or leave it”: Response to Mr Sarkozy from someone who loved it and left it par Fatiha

Fatiha — Tue, 15 Dec 2009 13:09:25 +0000

Thanks for your comments and for sharing this point of view. I did put a sarcastic tone to my words but only to emphasize the feelings of rejection that many of us experience. I think that french media play a big role in this situation and have a lot of work to do to improve the image of ethnic minorities in France, to be more accessible to everyone and to educate the population…

Let’s just hope that « a change is gonna come » (Same Cooke)

Commentaires sur Today another Muslim outfit is on the spot par admin

admin — Sun, 13 Dec 2009 17:40:22 +0000

Yes, even with the Chinese community you should make sure that your analysis is a sound one.
According to what I know, the Chinese born in France went to school, and therefore speak French and they are French. So, do not mix up or confound the newly arrived and those born in the country. Same thing when it comes to Muslims. Those wearing the Burka in France today are not the newly arrived who tend to assimilate more than anything else. It is the Muslims born in France and the converted ones who tend to wear the Burka in France.
Here again I am talking about France and no other country. It is important indeed to be clear and not mix up everything when you analyze such subjects.
Let’s come back to the Chinese community as you mentioned it. If the newly arrived Chinese do not take the time to learn French; if they only read and watch Chinese news; it is sad for them, since any form of knowledge is good. But at the same time, this is their choice and there is nothing we can do against a free choice when we believe in genuine freedom of choice.
Forced marriages or arranged marriages are true for men and women in the Muslim communities, and I know what I am talking about being a male Muslim myself.
If according to the new law you are talking about people cannot get married before the age of 18 in France, let me tell you that this does not affect Muslims at all. Anyone who knows about Islam is aware that being married in front of the French civil law has no value or meaning in Islam. This type of marriage is not recognized in Islam the same way Muslim marriages are not recognized by the French authorities. So, what often happen is, men and women are recognized as partners or friends in front of the civil law but as married under the Islamic law. Once the prayers are said 2 people are married in Islam and the French system cannot do anything against that. The 2 people can live together or not, but they are married. You see, it is very important to be well aware of what you talking about when analyzing an issue in sociology. So your example with this change concerning the age of marriage is irrelevant here.
Concerning the insults; have a look again at what you first wrote. Some forms of ignorance sometimes are quite insulting.
- These gaps are very dangerous. I know the Qur’an aimed at clarifying some of these gaps, but it appears that it hasn’t fully succeeded.
- This is where, I think, religion becomes stupid.
- I can reasonably claim that Islam is dangerous
- So, what most Muslims do is perfectly relevant when judging Islam.

Commentaires sur Today another Muslim outfit is on the spot par Gilles

Gilles — Sun, 13 Dec 2009 13:09:49 +0000

One last thing.
The title of the forum is « An open eye ». I think it could be good to keep both eyes open…

Commentaires sur Today another Muslim outfit is on the spot par Gilles

Gilles — Sun, 13 Dec 2009 12:41:36 +0000

I am disappointed.
I am very disappointed.
I was hoping to get some real discussion in this forum, but it does not seem to work.
Alright, I was taking a perspective that could hurt the sensitivity of Muslims. This way, I was hoping to understand what they truly had in mind. And I haven’t found anything. Instead of offering real argumentations against my ideas, my detractors have just called me a racist, a child, a compared me to Hitler and whoever…
I think that Islam and Muslims are two subjects that are too sensible for this forum. Maybe, the discussion about national identity should have focused more on the Chinese communities (I hope this won’t offend anyone else). There are Chinese quarters in London, Paris, Manchester and other big European cities. Some people in these quarters don’t speak the language of the country they live in. They read Chinese newspapers and watch Chinese TV. They eat Chinese food and rarely go outside their Chinese quarter. How can you consider such people as French and English? If they don’t consider themselves as French or English, why should I? I truly believe that being French or English should mean more than holding the corresponding passport, but this is certainly because I am a son of Hitler, a racist White European.
Regarding the veil, I remember that in 2006, the minimal legal age to get married was changed in order to avoid forced marriages. This went against the traditions of some immigrants, whose parents used to marry their daughters before they were 18. Even though some women would be willing to get married earlier, therefore carrying on the family traditions, they just have to wait a bit longer. How does this minimal age for marriage differs from forbidding the complete veil? Both of them go against individual rights.

I think this was my final reply, as I don’t see any opportunity to start a constructive discussion. If you live in Europe, you should try to understand the European perspective. You call me racist only because I try to share my concerns, and you call me a « White European » while I have never refered to a skin colour. You tell me that I should not criticise Islam because I haven’t studied here for several years. No European will be ready to study the Qur’an for years so that you can all be integrated. Should we also do the same for Buddhists, Chinese and all the people immigrating to Europe. Worst, I have also read that some were « happy to be not fully European ». I don’t even know what it means to be fully European. And how could you consider yourself as European if you are not fully European and you criticise Europeans for being racists?
It seems to me that you are not willing to make ideas progress, but that you are trying to express the frustration you accumulated when you were younger and victim of racism (even though I am sure you will say I am wrong). If you consider this forum as the media for your fight, you won’t accept any criticisms to your ideas, because you will consider them as personal criticisms. As a consequence, there won’t be any chances for discussion.
I am very very disappointed. (And I vomit my racist disappointment as a child)

Commentaires sur Today another Muslim outfit is on the spot par admin

admin — Thu, 10 Dec 2009 00:44:41 +0000

I do not understand why the French republique can not have any flaw while the Qu’ran can?
Could you let me know please?
How many women wearing the complete veil in the UK did come to you to confess that they were not free minders? (Just hope you’re not telling lies here)
>Would a pious man marry an someone westernized (For sure I know that the criterion for those guys is above all often piety, once again go to the Muslim website and judge by yourself; you will find the most often mentioned criterion for male and women)
Conrning Muslim children…
Do Christians ask their son if they want to be baptised or not?
Do non Christians do the same?
Do Jews do the same?
Every child of any confession tend during his or their childhood follow the steps of their parents. The education given by their parents and this till they become really independent, that is to say by adulthood. In each case during childhood, it is the parents who decide… So, why are you focused on Islam if you are not Isllamophobic?
Why can a man dicide to forbade himself in everything because of his love for the Almighty while a woman cannot have the same philosophy or envy?
Go to « Let’s help our brothers and sisters get married » on face book and hear what women wearing the complete veil say, instead of feeding yourself with the racist conceptions that you vomit afterwards through childish arguments. Let’s listen for what they say cause do they have a brain to think, reflect and express themselves and let’s stop talking for them… Let’s stop being paternalistic…
The fact that you do not understand that people could opt for the complete veil does not mean it is impossible. Or maybe being white European (and beacause of some kind of heritence of the enlightment period and philosophy), you understand everything, and the world included and every other conception is wrong.
Also, I am French but do not understand the value of the French Republique, could you let me know exactly what they are?
Is that freedom of faith or forced secularism (don’t know)?
For me all the debates around the notion of the FRench Republique and identity are means for the racist Europeans to try to maintain white supermacy…
It is an expression of fear in front of the challenge of new powers.Am I wrong? We see it in the domain of faith with Islam, in the domain of economy with china and so on ….
‘Cause
Is fooling himself the one who thinks that those who enslaved and colonised his ancestors now want to free his women.
Is fooling herself the one who thinks that those killing her fathers, brothers and sons (as in Afghanistan) do it so that she can totally be free.
Those at the origin of the racist theories created during the period they’ve called « the enlightment period » never liked us, and will never like us until we self distuct ourselves.

Commentaires sur Today another Muslim outfit is on the spot par Gilles

Gilles — Wed, 09 Dec 2009 10:00:07 +0000

Yes. The police can be dangerous if not controlled properly. Yes, republics can be dangerous if not controlled properly (look at how medias can influence people’s ideas and votes). No, racism cannot be due to the values of the Republique (or at least I don’t know what you mean). Yes, racism in France is partly due to a history of wars and colonisation, which presented the Franch people as superior to other peoples.

I think you cannot talk about the interdiction of the burka in France without considering the perception of the Muslim community in France. Besides, most of the women I know in the UK who wear a complete veil are not free minders, but they act according to the requests or exigences of their husbands. I think this goes against the European values that claim that men and women are equal.
Also, you talk about free choice. At what age are you able to make such a « free choice »? When I hear about 6 or 8 year old girls willing to wear a veil, when I hear about 7 year old boys following the Ramadan, when I hear about boys and girls willing to have a holy communion, I just wonder how anyone can call this a « free choice ». They have no idea what they are doing. They just want to imitate people around them.

So here are the two points I want to make:
- I understand that the burka is banned, because I believe that it goes against the values of the Republique that « all men and women are equal ». Indeed, as a non-Muslim-fully-European, I think that burkas can be a way for SOME men to keep control on women and to ensure their superiority over them. If forbidding the burka (not the small veil) can help these women, then I am in favor of this new law (as far as i understood, it is not explicit in the Qur’an that women must wear a complete veil, so it does not go against the Qur’an).
- After this discussion, I still don’t know how you can make sure that a woman freely decides to wear a complete veil. If you were able to do that, there should be no discussion as the law would immediately become discriminating.

Gilles

Commentaires sur Today another Muslim outfit is on the spot par admin

admin — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 21:00:09 +0000

Just think: if a policeman kills someone by mistake are we going to say that the conception of having a police force in a society is dangerous? Same thing for the French republique. Can we say that if racism among the French has become more than obvious today, this is beacause of the French values of the Republique and all that…?

Next time you see someone who calls himsef a Muslim acting in a certain way ask this one if he is acting according to Islam I am sure you will be surprised by his or her answer because they all know the truth, and when they are not acting according to the Qu’ran….

It is a racial and Ethnic conception of Islam that urge many people to conclude that Oh! his name is Mohammed so he is acting like that because he is Muslim etc …..Or he is Muslim because of his name he calls himself so, therefore whatever he does is Islamic…

Of course education is the very key to everything and I am quite positive with the young british Muslim generation. Do not forget that those who are our age in Britain were for a great number of them born in the UK. They are educated. It is freshly arrived who present the most important problems and difficulties (language and cultural conception).
For the bombers they are a minority, a worrynig minority though I recognise it but, Can we juge a whole people through its minority ….
Let’s explore this idea with the French again. For example,the racist in France are a minority, well I thinks so could we say that…. No, better stop here. That is not nice…. I have got too much respect for that…

So you see, the initial article was just on « why do we need a law to prevent some women to wear a complete veil when we know for sure that this minority of women most often have decided do so as a free choice? »
See now where all this debate brought us ……
« Muslims this, Muslims that ….. etc »
Nothing linked with the French Muslims, but more the terrorists, the Asian community in the UK and all that….
That is sad, that is the real shame

Mouss

Commentaires sur Today another Muslim outfit is on the spot par Gilles

Gilles — Tue, 08 Dec 2009 14:17:25 +0000

OK. To make it short:
1- I know I am not the most qualified to talk about the Qur’an.
2- I think that European values are deteriorating, and that they should not be given as an example.
3- I thought this website was about sharing opinions. My opinion might not be right, but when you see the increase of racism against Muslims in Europe (people are even becoming afraid of buildings!), I don’t think this is completely irrelevant.
4- I like the way educated Muslims perceive Islam. But I have an issue with the way uneducated Muslims perceive Islam. You will certainly say that this is not Islam, but for a non-believer, it does not matter. If they consider themselves as good Muslims who follow precisely the holy book, it is not my role (as someone who hasn’t read the Qur’an) to judge who are the true Muslims: you or suicide bombers. As a consequence, I can reasonably claim that Islam is dangerous, depending which rules are considered as the holy ones.
5- The same way that I don’t claim all the Muslims are bad, retarded, dangerous and ugly, you should admit that education is a problem is some so-claimed Islamic countries. People who come to Europe should therefore be educated in order to facilitate their integration. And the notion of equality and respect between men and women should be one of the main point of this education. If education is not judged as necessary because « we should accept everyone as he/she is » and we should not try to uniform people, then it would be stupid to forbid the burka as well. So the problem is down to the usual integration/assimilation discussion. Do we need some kind of education of immigrants or should they be accepted as they are, no matter what?

Commentaires sur Today another Muslim outfit is on the spot par admin

admin — Mon, 07 Dec 2009 22:38:17 +0000

Yes, I do understand your point.
I remember the time I used to go to the literature exam without even having read the book.
Unfortunately for me, the results were always cathastrophic even though my English was quite good. So, I do undertand your situation right now for having experienced it.
What I can suggest you at the moment is to read and study the Qu’ran and come back to dicuss the issue some years later when you’ve got sound understanding of your subject
-1st Islam should not be imposed by any other human being. It is a free choice anyone who has read the Qu’ran knows this.
- 2cnd The Prophet (PBH)is a human being for Muslims just like you and me,anyone who has read the book knows that
3rd The position of Muslims is the same one as many scientists: Time does not exist, therefore the Qu’ran has time or « epoque »
4th Every one knows that for Muslims the Qu’ran was not really written by the Prophet. The Surats are for Muslims the words of God
-5th Men just like woman -and that is very true for the younger generation born in the European countries- just want to get married with women or men who are very religious like them. Anyone studying the matter knows that. Go and see the Muslim websites destined for those looking for partners. Anyone who wants to know and find sound information can do so through a very simple research instead of speculating on nonsens statements….
I am stopping here otherwise it might be too long

But, you should make a difference between the way people react and what is really written in the Qu’ran but for that of course you need to study it.
Is not what you see in Britain part of certain pre-Islamic culture that has nothing to do with Islam. Look at the Hindus, they often have similar behaviours.
Very important to know your subject when you tackle such issues.

You, get yourself a translation and start reading the Qu’ran, if you want to gain credibility in your commentaries and arguments. I can help you with that if you really what to study the subject and make up your own opinion.

Besides, you have been living in the UK for quite a long time to know that in terms of violence against women our European Values have nothing to teach Muslims, same thing for the respect of women and prostitution. Go back to FRance and switch on your TV set… if you think that this is the way we respect women…….
That’s a shame, what about Pedophilia? It seems that it has become a new European sport… see, the French establishment through the voice of Mittereand is defending Polanski.
So are we going to judge the French Republique, its doctrine and values through what French people do or did in the past.
If that is the case in such situation it is difficult to ask people to assimilate themselves to such values and identity.