Today another Muslim outfit is on the spot
Listen to: Yusuf Islam (Cat Stevens)16
Once again the debate is put on the table. Half a decade ago the Muslim headscarf was taken off from state schools in France on the pretence that it was incompatible with the secular values of the French Republic. Today another Muslim outfit is on the spot. There is a difference however; those fighting against the wearing of the burqa and the niqab want, this time, parliament to legislate so that these two outfits could be banned not only in the French institutions but as well in the life of every citizen.
The idea for such legislation came from the communist deputy Andre Guerin who pledges that France has “to deal with the question”. This idea is now supported by many other deputies from both major political parties. With this new issue regarding Muslim outfits and culture, it becomes difficult for the French Muslim community to believe that what was decided 5 years ago was not aimed at containing the expansion and expression of Muslims’ values and culture in the hexagon.
Many feminist movements in France see in the wearing of the burqa and the niqab an offense towards the woman gender. One point is however being missed in their conception and fight against an obvious expression of Islam. If some men can adopt Islam to the point of letting their beard grow and wearing no other clothes but the Muslim djelaba, why is it that some women cannot make the same choice of restraint and complete submission to God to the point of wearing a complete veil? This is a question most feminist movements need to ponder and answer in order to avoid philosophical contradictions. The wearing of the burqa and the niqab can be a free choice from women as well, and denying it would be admitting a difference between men and women. It is in this sense that forbidding these two Muslim outfits can be considered as an attempt to human liberty. The non believers should for once respect the choice of some Muslim women wearing the niqab or burqa as a free choice. God wears a veil says the Qur’an, here is another reason for Muslim women to wear one as well.
The proposal to ban the burqa and the niqab comes few days after President Barak Obama’s famous speech in Cairo where addressing the Muslim world he claimed that it was not acceptable for some governments in the Western World to prevent Muslims from practicing part of their culture by dictating them how to get dressed. Barak Obama who was born a Muslim and then later converted to Christianity is the first Western head of state to be working with Muslim women wearing the Islamic headscarf in his administration. Many specialists saw in Obama’s speech in Cairo a denunciation of France’s institutional racism and discrimination. The bill that created a new debate and polemic is seen by most sociologists as part of the ethnocide policy that has been launched against ethnic minorities in France for more than three decades now.
Indeed, what will the next step be?
Men with long gowns or wearing short trousers in the Salafi style should enjoy their last moments of freedom of expression before there come the time when they are forced to shave their long beard and wear exclusively European clothes in order to be authorized entrance in the French institutions.
By Dr. Moustafa Traore
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You talk about equality between Muslim men and women when you say that women should have the choice to wear a burqa or a veil in France as men can choose to have a long beard and wear traditional clothes. But that’s an utopy. There is no such thing as equality between men and women in general and less so when it concerns Muslims. Why so I see so many women wearing traditional clothes and the burqa in the streets in England while the husband is nearly always in European clothes? Do those women really choose to wear a burqa or is it family/religious pressure?
Anyway on a daily basis, women are not considered equal as men and they certainly do not have any freedom in their daily life. I work with Muslim ladies and they tell me what really happens at home, away from what the media say or from what people think happen. They don’t have free access to education (in their country or here), so they can’t read or write, most of them can’t drive, only a minority of them can have jobs (and no any job), they don’t have access to technology like computers… Knowing the complete lack of freedom they have in their lives, it’s really hard to believe they have a choice to wear a veil or not. Their family tell them what to do and not to do and that’s it. So maybe Muslim educated women have that choice, but that’s certainly not the case of all the women.
I can’t say I agree with France about the burqa as it should indeed be a personal choice, but the real question is: how can we make sure women have that choice?
Be very careful Sylvia,
Lots of Muslims do not understand the principles of Islam
because of a lack of education
Islam should not be judged through what most Muslims do
But rather by what is contained in the holy book
Your understanding of religion is not the one of a Muslim nor of a religious one. Integrety of religion is the very reason why Islam had to come according to what I understood; because of the changes brought by human beings in the original messages of god in the Torah and the Bible. Which also means that Islam came just to rectify the changes made by the Jews and Christians in terms of practis and understanding.
So I would say religioous people can be judged through their act and the book they believe in, but their book can only be judged by itself.
I know Moustafa quite well enough to tell you that what he is saying is that the French model is the one of assimilation while the British one the one of integration and not the other way round.
Of course, those people need to be educated. They need good Islamic institutions and courses to get to a better understanding of Islam. This is the only solution if we want to make the distinction between culture and religion.
It makes no doubt to me that if they have sound knowledge of religion and science these people will interact much more easily in society. That can only help social cohesion.
But of course we none Muslim should also be re-educated, and we should get rid of the wrong conception of white Judeo-Christian supermacy on which the foundations of our civilisation are based on.
Interesting comments Gilles. I totally agree with you. Only a minority of Muslims understand what is written in the Coran, that is can read the language and truly understand the meaning of the words used. What about the others? Since very little, they have just repeated the words by heart and just practice Islam as they have been told. The majority of Muslims don’t understand « what is contained in the holy book » as you say. So how can what is written be the most important thing? It should be, but it is not. Therefore there are many contradictory interpretations of the Coran. This is why Islam is so misunderstood today and this is also why two Muslims can behave in opposite ways and have opposite values, as if they had totally different religions. Taking that into account, it is obvious that what Muslims do will dictate the image non-Muslims will have of Islam. And you cannot reasonably ask non-Muslims to read and understand the Holy Coran to have the true picture of what Islam is, as most Muslims cannot do that themselves.
Mike, at least we agree that education is the key to everything! They need good Islamic institutions to understand Islam better, that’s true, but they more importantly need basic education, in their language, the language of the country they now live, as well as knowledge of Maths, Science, Geography, History and so on. Indeed they need critical thinking at quite a good level to be able to have their own opinions of everything that is around them: politics, religion and society in general. It’s good to understand a religion but if you cannot understand anything else, you won’t go very far. Each individual needs to make their own decisions and choices, including religion (do they want to practise a religion? Why is that important to them? How are they going to practise it?). They need to think about what is going on around them and have the skills to fight for what they believe in – the way we do it in this forum for instance.
Hi Mike,
I tend to disagree with you. I think that religions should be judged through both their holy books and the way believers interpret these books. If the holy book leaves space for dangerous or discriminative interpretations, I think these misguiding rules should also be considered when judging the corresponding religion. So, what most Muslims do is perfectly relevant when judging Islam.
Also, Moustaph/fa wrote a very interesting PhD where he explains the difference between integration and assimilation of Muslims in the French and English societies. He claims that immigrants are accepted as they are when they come to England (assimilation), while they are expected to adapt to the society when they come to France (integration). The case presented by Sylvia illustrates the situation in some parts of England, where Pakistanis don't have to give up their previous believes and practices. If their wrong interpretation of Islam is due to their lack of education, why doesn't England force them to have this education? Would these women still wear the burka if they understood that this is not a requirement of their religion? Would they still refuse to study / work /talk to men if they understood them better? If education could make them change their behaviour, then the burka is a symbol of submission to both God and their husband. As such, it is normal to have debate on whether the burka should be banned or not. And the decision of the French government is, somehow, logical.
I think everyone agrees on the importance of education in general. Personally, I believe that anyone needs some understanding of the 5 main religions. The RE (Religious Education) subject, that exists in English schools but not in French ones, is very important.
The only issue I have with the Coran is that people who want to read it are supposed to read the original edition (in Arabic!). As a practical question: how can it be taught with no personal interpretation to people not fluent in Arabic?
To come back to the subject: is it said in the Coran that women have to wear the burka? If not, how can forbidding burkas goes against the Holy book? How is it offensive to Muslims or Islam?
There are some good translation for the Qu’rn but you are right better learn the language and read the original text to get a sound understanding.
With the translations it is necessary to use different versions and compare them. It requires an imporant work of research and analysis; the same way we study the old texts in our own languages at college. to do.
In the Qu’rn it is well mentioned that women have to wear a veil, but there are different interpretations on the kind of veil and what it should be covering. The wives of the Prophet used to wear a complete veil; and this is why some Muslims women wear the burka it today.
Forbiding the burka is very much resented because it goes against the conception of some of their culture or religion. It is more an attack against civil liberties that is pointed out here.
And this is easy to understand for anyone who has got good comprehension of the British notion of Habeas Corpus.
The example of the veil demonstrates exactly what I was explaining above: every holy book contains some gaps that are left to interpretation. These gaps are very dangerous. I know the Qur’an aimed at clarifying some of these gaps, but it appears that it hasn’t fully succeeded. The term Jihad for example has different meanings for different Muslims. And the different branches of Islam are based on different interpretation of the holy book.
I agree that civil liberties have to be respected, but only to a certain extend. If men use the burka as a means of pressure over women, these women lose their integrity as civilians. Besides, it seems to me that the Muslims in favor of the burka are usually the most conservative ones. Very often, they have their marriage arranged (forced?) and some women live isolated in their in-law family. I agree this is an extreme situation that should not be generalised but it is a frequent situation in the UK. If forbidding the burka can help these women regaining a life instead of living like slaves, than I am in favour of it. And women who would genuinely like to were a burka could think that not wearing it might help a few other women. And that God will certainly be grateful that they gave up their faith to save the life of others.
This is where, I think, religion becomes stupid. People should stop following rules just because they are in a book, but because they believe they are good rules. If not wearing a burka is like a sacrifice for you, you should ask yourself if this sacrifice is worth it instead of just following the holy book because you’ve been told to.
There is no gap in the Qur’an Gilles,
The gap is in you head (LoL)
Have you read and studied it to say it has not succeeded…
Start reading it first before just repeating what you hear here and there.
Remember the French singer Renauld when he says « Etudiant poils aux dents, ils ne transportent dans leurs cartables que les conneries de leurs ainées »
This is the reason why phylosophy in France is in crisis. We keep on repeating what we hear without really studing it ourselves.
Who told you that all the women wearing the burka were forced to do so… This is just a western conception.
Marriage in Islam is an arrangement for men and women, I know what I am talking about…
In Islam everyone is a slave of the A1mighty, men and women alike. They are not slaves of any superior human race or civilisation, as some in the history of mankind tried to make us believe.
neither slave of fashion or any corrupt system.
But I know you know all that since you seem to know what God thinks (Astafrulay)LoL
Mouss
I agree with about everything that has been said above. Muslims are not all extremist bomb-makers. But it you would have to live with care bears on a cloud to truly believe that Islam, like any religion, cannot be dangerous. As soon as people follow some kind of rules without understanding them, it becomes dangerous. More so if the the rules have been written thousands of years ago and if some points of these rules are not crystal clear.
As you know, I see Muhammad more as a philosopher than a prophet (it is my choice as a non-believer, but I respect that other people see him differently). I think he was one of the best philosopher the world has ever seen, but to my mind, he was still human. One of his mistakes has been to leave the Qur'an prone to interpretations. This has led to several branches of Islam all arguing and criticising one another (according to a Iranian friend), forming different communities that don't mix (according to French, Turkish, English and Pakistani friends). Taking about integration, acceptance and racism…
I know some women choose to wear a burka, and I would like to tell them that this is their individual choice and that no one should have a say on it. However, I also know that other women are excluded and treated as slaves because of it. I don't care if anyone consider him/herself as a slave to God, but no one should be treated as the slave of another human being. The same way buying drugs contributes to paying drug dealers and increasing gang fighting and insecurity. The same way paying a hore contributes to financing prostitution networks and slavery. The same way, wearing a burka might contribute to domestic violence and slavery. It is everyone's choice to decide whether wearing a burka for God is worth destoying the life of others.
I am sure that you will say my view is extreme, but it expresses the concerns of some of the non-Muslim population.
Also, I don't take a formal, academic approach to criticise religions (based on an extensive literature study). I am more interested in what religious people think, and I take a participative approach by interrogating those I know.
Final point to clarify: of course I know what God thinks! I AM God… Need some proof? Look at the song that was written for me.
Yes, I do understand your point.
I remember the time I used to go to the literature exam without even having read the book.
Unfortunately for me, the results were always cathastrophic even though my English was quite good. So, I do undertand your situation right now for having experienced it.
What I can suggest you at the moment is to read and study the Qu’ran and come back to dicuss the issue some years later when you’ve got sound understanding of your subject
-1st Islam should not be imposed by any other human being. It is a free choice anyone who has read the Qu’ran knows this.
- 2cnd The Prophet (PBH)is a human being for Muslims just like you and me,anyone who has read the book knows that
3rd The position of Muslims is the same one as many scientists: Time does not exist, therefore the Qu’ran has time or « epoque »
4th Every one knows that for Muslims the Qu’ran was not really written by the Prophet. The Surats are for Muslims the words of God
-5th Men just like woman -and that is very true for the younger generation born in the European countries- just want to get married with women or men who are very religious like them. Anyone studying the matter knows that. Go and see the Muslim websites destined for those looking for partners. Anyone who wants to know and find sound information can do so through a very simple research instead of speculating on nonsens statements….
I am stopping here otherwise it might be too long
But, you should make a difference between the way people react and what is really written in the Qu’ran but for that of course you need to study it.
Is not what you see in Britain part of certain pre-Islamic culture that has nothing to do with Islam. Look at the Hindus, they often have similar behaviours.
Very important to know your subject when you tackle such issues.
You, get yourself a translation and start reading the Qu’ran, if you want to gain credibility in your commentaries and arguments. I can help you with that if you really what to study the subject and make up your own opinion.
Besides, you have been living in the UK for quite a long time to know that in terms of violence against women our European Values have nothing to teach Muslims, same thing for the respect of women and prostitution. Go back to FRance and switch on your TV set… if you think that this is the way we respect women…….
That’s a shame, what about Pedophilia? It seems that it has become a new European sport… see, the French establishment through the voice of Mittereand is defending Polanski.
So are we going to judge the French Republique, its doctrine and values through what French people do or did in the past.
If that is the case in such situation it is difficult to ask people to assimilate themselves to such values and identity.
OK. To make it short:
1- I know I am not the most qualified to talk about the Qur'an.
2- I think that European values are deteriorating, and that they should not be given as an example.
3- I thought this website was about sharing opinions. My opinion might not be right, but when you see the increase of racism against Muslims in Europe (people are even becoming afraid of buildings!), I don't think this is completely irrelevant.
4- I like the way educated Muslims perceive Islam. But I have an issue with the way uneducated Muslims perceive Islam. You will certainly say that this is not Islam, but for a non-believer, it does not matter. If they consider themselves as good Muslims who follow precisely the holy book, it is not my role (as someone who hasn't read the Qur'an) to judge who are the true Muslims: you or suicide bombers. As a consequence, I can reasonably claim that Islam is dangerous, depending which rules are considered as the holy ones.
5- The same way that I don't claim all the Muslims are bad, retarded, dangerous and ugly, you should admit that education is a problem is some so-claimed Islamic countries. People who come to Europe should therefore be educated in order to facilitate their integration. And the notion of equality and respect between men and women should be one of the main point of this education. If education is not judged as necessary because "we should accept everyone as he/she is" and we should not try to uniform people, then it would be stupid to forbid the burka as well. So the problem is down to the usual integration/assimilation discussion. Do we need some kind of education of immigrants or should they be accepted as they are, no matter what?
Just think: if a policeman kills someone by mistake are we going to say that the conception of having a police force in a society is dangerous? Same thing for the French republique. Can we say that if racism among the French has become more than obvious today, this is beacause of the French values of the Republique and all that…?
Next time you see someone who calls himsef a Muslim acting in a certain way ask this one if he is acting according to Islam I am sure you will be surprised by his or her answer because they all know the truth, and when they are not acting according to the Qu’ran….
It is a racial and Ethnic conception of Islam that urge many people to conclude that Oh! his name is Mohammed so he is acting like that because he is Muslim etc …..Or he is Muslim because of his name he calls himself so, therefore whatever he does is Islamic…
Of course education is the very key to everything and I am quite positive with the young british Muslim generation. Do not forget that those who are our age in Britain were for a great number of them born in the UK. They are educated. It is freshly arrived who present the most important problems and difficulties (language and cultural conception).
For the bombers they are a minority, a worrynig minority though I recognise it but, Can we juge a whole people through its minority ….
Let’s explore this idea with the French again. For example,the racist in France are a minority, well I thinks so could we say that…. No, better stop here. That is not nice…. I have got too much respect for that…
So you see, the initial article was just on « why do we need a law to prevent some women to wear a complete veil when we know for sure that this minority of women most often have decided do so as a free choice? »
See now where all this debate brought us ……
« Muslims this, Muslims that ….. etc »
Nothing linked with the French Muslims, but more the terrorists, the Asian community in the UK and all that….
That is sad, that is the real shame
Mouss
Yes. The police can be dangerous if not controlled properly. Yes, republics can be dangerous if not controlled properly (look at how medias can influence people's ideas and votes). No, racism cannot be due to the values of the Republique (or at least I don't know what you mean). Yes, racism in France is partly due to a history of wars and colonisation, which presented the Franch people as superior to other peoples.
I think you cannot talk about the interdiction of the burka in France without considering the perception of the Muslim community in France. Besides, most of the women I know in the UK who wear a complete veil are not free minders, but they act according to the requests or exigences of their husbands. I think this goes against the European values that claim that men and women are equal.
Also, you talk about free choice. At what age are you able to make such a "free choice"? When I hear about 6 or 8 year old girls willing to wear a veil, when I hear about 7 year old boys following the Ramadan, when I hear about boys and girls willing to have a holy communion, I just wonder how anyone can call this a "free choice". They have no idea what they are doing. They just want to imitate people around them.
So here are the two points I want to make:
- I understand that the burka is banned, because I believe that it goes against the values of the Republique that "all men and women are equal". Indeed, as a non-Muslim-fully-European, I think that burkas can be a way for SOME men to keep control on women and to ensure their superiority over them. If forbidding the burka (not the small veil) can help these women, then I am in favor of this new law (as far as i understood, it is not explicit in the Qur'an that women must wear a complete veil, so it does not go against the Qur'an).
- After this discussion, I still don't know how you can make sure that a woman freely decides to wear a complete veil. If you were able to do that, there should be no discussion as the law would immediately become discriminating.
Gilles
I do not understand why the French republique can not have any flaw while the Qu’ran can?
Could you let me know please?
How many women wearing the complete veil in the UK did come to you to confess that they were not free minders? (Just hope you’re not telling lies here)
>Would a pious man marry an someone westernized (For sure I know that the criterion for those guys is above all often piety, once again go to the Muslim website and judge by yourself; you will find the most often mentioned criterion for male and women)
Conrning Muslim children…
Do Christians ask their son if they want to be baptised or not?
Do non Christians do the same?
Do Jews do the same?
Every child of any confession tend during his or their childhood follow the steps of their parents. The education given by their parents and this till they become really independent, that is to say by adulthood. In each case during childhood, it is the parents who decide… So, why are you focused on Islam if you are not Isllamophobic?
Why can a man dicide to forbade himself in everything because of his love for the Almighty while a woman cannot have the same philosophy or envy?
Go to « Let’s help our brothers and sisters get married » on face book and hear what women wearing the complete veil say, instead of feeding yourself with the racist conceptions that you vomit afterwards through childish arguments. Let’s listen for what they say cause do they have a brain to think, reflect and express themselves and let’s stop talking for them… Let’s stop being paternalistic…
The fact that you do not understand that people could opt for the complete veil does not mean it is impossible. Or maybe being white European (and beacause of some kind of heritence of the enlightment period and philosophy), you understand everything, and the world included and every other conception is wrong.
Also, I am French but do not understand the value of the French Republique, could you let me know exactly what they are?
Is that freedom of faith or forced secularism (don’t know)?
For me all the debates around the notion of the FRench Republique and identity are means for the racist Europeans to try to maintain white supermacy…
It is an expression of fear in front of the challenge of new powers.Am I wrong? We see it in the domain of faith with Islam, in the domain of economy with china and so on ….
‘Cause
Is fooling himself the one who thinks that those who enslaved and colonised his ancestors now want to free his women.
Is fooling herself the one who thinks that those killing her fathers, brothers and sons (as in Afghanistan) do it so that she can totally be free.
Those at the origin of the racist theories created during the period they’ve called « the enlightment period » never liked us, and will never like us until we self distuct ourselves.
I am disappointed.
I am very disappointed.
I was hoping to get some real discussion in this forum, but it does not seem to work.
Alright, I was taking a perspective that could hurt the sensitivity of Muslims. This way, I was hoping to understand what they truly had in mind. And I haven’t found anything. Instead of offering real argumentations against my ideas, my detractors have just called me a racist, a child, a compared me to Hitler and whoever…
I think that Islam and Muslims are two subjects that are too sensible for this forum. Maybe, the discussion about national identity should have focused more on the Chinese communities (I hope this won’t offend anyone else). There are Chinese quarters in London, Paris, Manchester and other big European cities. Some people in these quarters don’t speak the language of the country they live in. They read Chinese newspapers and watch Chinese TV. They eat Chinese food and rarely go outside their Chinese quarter. How can you consider such people as French and English? If they don’t consider themselves as French or English, why should I? I truly believe that being French or English should mean more than holding the corresponding passport, but this is certainly because I am a son of Hitler, a racist White European.
Regarding the veil, I remember that in 2006, the minimal legal age to get married was changed in order to avoid forced marriages. This went against the traditions of some immigrants, whose parents used to marry their daughters before they were 18. Even though some women would be willing to get married earlier, therefore carrying on the family traditions, they just have to wait a bit longer. How does this minimal age for marriage differs from forbidding the complete veil? Both of them go against individual rights.
I think this was my final reply, as I don’t see any opportunity to start a constructive discussion. If you live in Europe, you should try to understand the European perspective. You call me racist only because I try to share my concerns, and you call me a « White European » while I have never refered to a skin colour. You tell me that I should not criticise Islam because I haven’t studied here for several years. No European will be ready to study the Qur’an for years so that you can all be integrated. Should we also do the same for Buddhists, Chinese and all the people immigrating to Europe. Worst, I have also read that some were « happy to be not fully European ». I don’t even know what it means to be fully European. And how could you consider yourself as European if you are not fully European and you criticise Europeans for being racists?
It seems to me that you are not willing to make ideas progress, but that you are trying to express the frustration you accumulated when you were younger and victim of racism (even though I am sure you will say I am wrong). If you consider this forum as the media for your fight, you won’t accept any criticisms to your ideas, because you will consider them as personal criticisms. As a consequence, there won’t be any chances for discussion.
I am very very disappointed. (And I vomit my racist disappointment as a child)
One last thing.
The title of the forum is "An open eye". I think it could be good to keep both eyes open…
Yes, even with the Chinese community you should make sure that your analysis is a sound one.
According to what I know, the Chinese born in France went to school, and therefore speak French and they are French. So, do not mix up or confound the newly arrived and those born in the country. Same thing when it comes to Muslims. Those wearing the Burka in France today are not the newly arrived who tend to assimilate more than anything else. It is the Muslims born in France and the converted ones who tend to wear the Burka in France.
Here again I am talking about France and no other country. It is important indeed to be clear and not mix up everything when you analyze such subjects.
Let’s come back to the Chinese community as you mentioned it. If the newly arrived Chinese do not take the time to learn French; if they only read and watch Chinese news; it is sad for them, since any form of knowledge is good. But at the same time, this is their choice and there is nothing we can do against a free choice when we believe in genuine freedom of choice.
Forced marriages or arranged marriages are true for men and women in the Muslim communities, and I know what I am talking about being a male Muslim myself.
If according to the new law you are talking about people cannot get married before the age of 18 in France, let me tell you that this does not affect Muslims at all. Anyone who knows about Islam is aware that being married in front of the French civil law has no value or meaning in Islam. This type of marriage is not recognized in Islam the same way Muslim marriages are not recognized by the French authorities. So, what often happen is, men and women are recognized as partners or friends in front of the civil law but as married under the Islamic law. Once the prayers are said 2 people are married in Islam and the French system cannot do anything against that. The 2 people can live together or not, but they are married. You see, it is very important to be well aware of what you talking about when analyzing an issue in sociology. So your example with this change concerning the age of marriage is irrelevant here.
Concerning the insults; have a look again at what you first wrote. Some forms of ignorance sometimes are quite insulting.
- These gaps are very dangerous. I know the Qur’an aimed at clarifying some of these gaps, but it appears that it hasn’t fully succeeded.
- This is where, I think, religion becomes stupid.
- I can reasonably claim that Islam is dangerous
- So, what most Muslims do is perfectly relevant when judging Islam.
well, well well, Islam have given the same rights to the woman as well, the husband,,, so if we follow Islam, it will really make our lives great and beautiful.
Sorry sir !
I think people need to know their limits and limitations. I do not think you tend to analyse any book of law or constitution that exist today the way you do with the Quoran.
You have to know Sir that every field has got its experts.So first,you need to seek the help of those experts who can leed you through all those mine fields of Arabic Language ,philosophy and jurisprudence. Then after years of serious studies,I`m sure you will learn to focus on big issues and take less interest in women clothing and underware!!!
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